Mote Marine Laboratory Archives - Page 2 of 3

Sportfishing and Conservation Groups Latest to Support Sustainable Shark Fisheries and Trade Act

May 9, 2018 — Three sportfishing and conservation groups have thrown their support behind a bill aimed at improving shark conservation worldwide while maintaining sustainable U.S. shark fisheries.

In a letter to the bill’s sponsors, the American Sportfishing Association, the Center for Sportfishing Policy, and the Coastal Conservation Association praise the bill, which they state will “reduce the overfishing and unsustainable trade of sharks, rays and skates around the world and prevent shark finning.” The bill was introduced in the House by Congressmen Daniel Webster (R-FL) and Ted Lieu (D-CA), and in the Senate by Senators Marco Rubio (R-FL) and Lisa Murkowski (R-AK).

The bill would require that all countries wishing to import shark products into the United States receive certification from the U.S. Secretary of Commerce that confirms they have effective prohibitions on the practice of shark finning, where a fin is removed from a shark at sea and rest of the shark is discarded. Countries seeking certification must also have shark management policies comparable to those in force in the United States, which has been praised for being a global leader in sustainable shark management and which has long outlawed the practice of shark finning.

“Recreational fishermen and the sportfishing industry are constantly striving to improve fishing practices that minimize harm to fish,” the letter states. “Shark finning flies in the face of the sportfishing community’s conservation ethic, and we fully support efforts – such as your legislation – to curtail this practice.”

These groups join a growing list of supporters of the Sustainable Shark Fisheries and Trade Act. The bill has already received the support of commercial shark fishermen, conservation groups such as the Wildlife Conservation Society, the Mote Marine Laboratory and 62 prominent shark scientists.

Read the full letter here.

Florida, Alaska Senators Champion Sustainable Shark Fisheries and Trade Act

May 4, 2018 — SEAFOOD NEWS — U.S. Senators Marco Rubio, R-Fla., and Lisa Murkowski, R-Alaska, recently introduced the Sustainable Shark Fisheries and Trade Act (S. 2764), a similar bill introduced in the House — H.R. 5248 — by Rep. Daniel Webster, R-Fla.

A press release from Rubio’s office said the bicameral legislation recognizes the sustainable and economically-valuable fishing practices of U.S. shark fishermen and promotes U.S. standards for shark conservation and humane harvest.

Sharks play an important role in maintaining the health of the ocean ecosystems for which Florida is known, Rubio noted in the statement.

“Sharks are already sustainably and humanely harvested in federal waters per U.S. law, providing sustained economic benefits to coastal communities through fishing, trade, and tourism. This bill will help promote those same standards for sustainable and humane shark harvesting among our global trade partners as well,” Rubio said in the release. “This bill protects international shark populations as well as the fishermen in Florida and throughout the U.S. who continue to fish by the rules.”

Both the senate and house bills are a contrast to other proposed legislation, such as H.R. 1456, directed at the sales of shark fins. Those bills, critics say, will do nothing to eliminate the sales of shark fins globally, punish the domestic seafood industry and could unintentionally create a market for the practice of shark finning by foreign fishermen.

“While the practice of shark finning is already banned in U.S. waters, we do have a small population of fishermen who legally harvest whole sharks for their meat, oil, and other products,” Murkowski said in the statement. “This legislation sets a strong policy example for global nations that wish to prevent shark finning in their waters, while respecting the cultures of communities that rely on subsistence, protecting the rights of American fisherman that operate in the legal shark fisheries, and supporting the efforts of shark conservationists.

“Together, we can find solutions to protect our fisheries, our communities, and our marine ecosystems, worldwide.”

According to Rubio’s office, the Sustainable Shark Fisheries and Trade Act would:

Create a shark conservation and trade fairness certification for nations wishing to import shark products to the U.S.;
Prohibit the importation of shark products originating from any nation without a certification, and the possession of such products in the U.S. with limited exceptions for law enforcement, subsistence harvest, education, conservation, or scientific research;
Update the High Seas Driftnet Fishing Moratorium Protection Act to reflect the U.S. commitment to promote international agreements that encourage the adoption of shark conservation and management measures and measures to prevent shark finning that are consistent with the International Plan of Action for Conservation and Management of Sharks; and
Direct the Secretary of Commerce to include rays and skates into the seafood traceability program to ensure that shark products are not smuggled into the U.S. falsely labeled as rays and skates, two closely related groups.

“Fishing is a long-standing profession and treasured American pastime,” Webster stated in the release. “We must pursue conservation, while balancing the needs of the industry and recreation. This bill recognizes the sacrifices American fishermen have made to rebuild and sustain our shark populations. It encourages other nations wishing to export shark products to the United States to adhere to the same high standards for conservation and management.”

Webster’s proposed legislation has 15 cosponsors. It passed the House Natural Resources Subcommittee on Water, Power and Oceans in April. It also has the support of several groups that have opposed H.R. 1456 and related bills. The Mote Marine Laboratory, Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission (FWC), the Palm Beach Zoo, SeaWorld, Zoo Miami Foundation, the Florida Aquarium, the Southeastern Fisheries Association, Directed Sustainable Fisheries, Louisiana Shrimpers and Garden State Seafood all support Webster’s bill, according to Sunshine State News.

This story originally appeared on Seafood News, it is republished here with permission.

U.S. Shark Fin Ban “Will Not Work,” Would Likely Hurt Shark Conservation Efforts, Expert Tells Rep. Doug Lamborn

May 2, 2018 — WASHINGTON — In response to a question from Rep. Doug Lamborn (R-CO), shark expert Dr. Robert Hueter wrote that a U.S. ban on the trade of shark fins would not work and would potentially lead to more unsustainable or finned shark fins in the global market.

Dr. Hueter, director of the Center for Shark Research at Mote Marine Laboratory in Sarasota, Florida, previously testified before the House Natural Resources Subcommittee on Water, Power and Oceans on April 17 in favor of a sustainable shark trade bill and against a fin ban. His most recent comments came in response to a follow-up question from Rep. Lamborn about the message a fin ban would send to other nations.

“U.S. fishers do not fin their sharks,” Dr. Hueter wrote. “So the consequences of this action will be to punish the fishers doing it right—U.S. shark fisheries—and reward the foreign fisheries doing it wrong. That is a terrible message to send the world.”

John Polston, a fisherman and representative of the Sustainable Shark Alliance, also testified in April in support of the Sustainable Shark Fisheries and Trade Act and in opposition to the Shark Fin Sales Elimination Act. The Sustainable Shark Alliance is a member of Saving Seafood’s National Coalition for Fishing Communities.

The full text of Rep. Lamborn’s question and Dr. Hueter’s response is reproduced below:

Question from Rep. Doug Lamborn for Dr. Robert Hueter, Director of the Center for Shark Research, Mote Marine Laboratory

Supporters of H.R. 1456 have argued that such a ban on shark fin sales would send a message to other countries. What message do you think this ban would send?

RESPONSE FROM DR. HUETER [emphasis added by Saving Seafood]:

The supporters of H.R. 1456 are hoping the message the U.S. will send to other nations with a domestic fin ban is that shark fins should no longer be tolerated as a consumable product. This U.S. leadership, they hope, would end the global fin market, eliminate all shark finning, and recover shark populations worldwide. Analogies are made to past U.S. leadership in the elephant ivory trade and in commercial whaling. But as explained in Dr. David Shiffman’s and my 2017 peer-reviewed paper in the journal Marine Policy, this approach is flawed and will not work, for several reasons. Unlike in the case of elephant ivory where the U.S. was the world’s major consumer, we are only a 1% player in the world shark fin market, and thus our withdrawal from that market will not have the same type of direct effect on world trade of fins as happened with the ivory trade. In fact, it’s reasonable to conclude that the small market share of shark fins that U.S. fishers currently supply will be taken up by nations fishing sharks unsustainably, probably even finning the sharks. Recall that U.S. fishers do not fin their sharks—that is, they do not remove the fins and discard the rest of the animals at sea, because American fishers are required to land all their sharks with the fins still “naturally attached” (with the exception of the northeast dogfish fishery, which is allowed to remove the fins at sea to begin processing the meat and fins on the fishing boat). So the consequences of this action will be to punish the fishers doing it right—U.S. shark fisheries—and reward the foreign fisheries doing it wrong. That is a terrible message to send the world.

Furthermore, our position at the international negotiating table where shark conservation issues are discussed will be compromised if we withdraw from the fin market. The message we will be carrying to that forum is, no matter what other nations do to create sustainability in their shark fisheries, it will never be enough to allow them to harvest the fins, in our view. This loss of leverage will backfire for U.S. attempts to advance shark conservation around the world. In addition, consider today’s realities with elephants and whales: elephants are still being poached as the ivory trade has been driven underground, meaning we can no longer track this commodity through world trade routes, and elephants are still declining. And whales are still being hunted commercially by those nations who do not share our preservationist beliefs about marine mammals. Along these lines, a domestic fin ban also sends a message to Asian cultures that even if they are using the entire shark, even if the sharks are not being finned and the level of fishing for them is sustainable, their use of fins to make soup is unethical. This creates a clash of cultural values, both internationally and domestically, and our moral position will be difficult to defend.

Finally, by focusing our legislative efforts solely on the fin trade in the U.S., we send a message to American citizens that we are solving the worldwide problem in shark depletion by banning the fins here. Conservation groups then declare victory to their supporters, Congress moves on to other issues, and the U.S. public thinks the problem has been solved. Nothing could be further from the truth, as sharks will continue to be caught by other nations for their meat and fins and suffer unsustainable levels of bycatch mortality in foreign fisheries. This is where H.R. 5248 represents an evolution of thinking in how to address the issue, by not simply focusing on the fins and also including the rays, which are in as serious trouble as the sharks worldwide.

Therefore, in my view the message we will be sending the world if we implement a nationwide, domestic ban of the shark fin trade is this: The U.S. does not believe in sustainable fishing for sharks, we do not subscribe to the full use doctrine for marine resources as laid out by the Food and Agriculture Organization (FAO) of the United Nations, we condemn Asian cultures for their consumption of shark fins even from sustainable shark fisheries, and we are okay with damaging our own domestic fisheries to construct a purely symbolic but misguided and ineffective message for shark conservation.

Mote tops rankings for nonprofit marine research

April 20, 2018 — Mote Marine Laboratory & Aquarium produces the most research of any nonprofit and ranks No. 2 out of 228 zoos and aquariums, reports a recent study of research productivity among Association of Zoos and Aquariums (AZA) members.

Study authors describe this as “the first study characterizing the contribution of zoos and aquariums to scientific research that results in the production of peer-reviewed scientific literature.”

The study, “Quantifying the contribution of zoos and aquariums to peer-reviewed scientific research,” was published online in FACETS last month.

The study revealed the productivity of AZA members using scientific publications and the productivity was defined in terms of industry specific items including peer-reviewed journal articles, book chapters, conference proceedings and citations from each publication.

Read the full story at Longboat Key News

Sustainable Shark Alliance Condemn Fin Ban, Push For Sustainable Shark Fisheries and Trade Act

April 18, 2018 — SEAFOOD NEWS — Should shark fin sales be banned in the U.S.? That’ the current debate.

On Tuesday members of the Sustainable Shark Alliance (SSA) testified before the House Natural Resources Subcommittee on Water, Power and Oceans to support legislation that would promote shark conservation and oppose the Shark Fin Sales Elimination Act.

As we previously reported, chefs and restaurant owners from over 30 states have sent a letter to Congress asking that they pass the Shark Fin Trade Elimination Act of 2017, which would ban the trade of shark fins nationwide. Shark finning is often cruel and wasteful, with some fishermen discarding the sharks at sea after cutting off their fins. Those sharks often drown, bleed to death, or get eaten alive by other fish.

The SSA is supporting the Sustainable Shark and Fisheries Trade Act (SSFTA), which would “incentivize” other nations to meet the same high standards of sustainability that U.S. shark fishermen follow.

“The SSFTA creates an incentive for other nations to end shark finning and meet the same high standards for marine conservation which the United States holds its fishermen,” SSA member and fisherman John Polston told the House Natural Resources Committee. “This bill recognizes the sacrifices our fishermen have made, and continue to make, to rebuild domestic shark populations by leveling the playing field with our foreign competitors.”

Dr. Robert Hueter, Director of the Center for Shark Research at Mote Marine Laboratory, added that the SSFTA would stop the importing and consumption of unsustainably fished shark on American soil, but not completely ban the sale of shark fins. The argument is that banning the sale of shark fins hurts U.S. fishermen who sustainably harvest and sell shark fins and other shark products.

“This bill punishes me and others in the shark fishery by taking away an important income source, undoubtedly pushing some small businesses into unprofitability,” said Polston. “It is an insult to American fishermen who have been required to give so much for decades to create a sustainable fishery.”

This story originally appeared on Seafood News, it is republished here with permission.

SSA Member to House Subcommittee: Sustainable Shark Bill Recognizes Sacrifices of U.S. Fishermen, Fin Ban Undermines Them

SSA member John Polston testifies before the House Natural Resources Subcommittee on Water, Power and Oceans today. (Photo: House Natural Resources Committee/YouTube)

April 17, 2018 — The following was released by the Sustainable Shark Alliance:

At a House Natural Resources subcommittee hearing today, John Polston, a fisherman and member of the Sustainable Shark Alliance (SSA), testified in support of legislation that would promote shark conservation by incentivizing other nations to meet the same high standards of sustainability as U.S. shark fishermen.

In testimony before the House Natural Resources Subcommittee on Water, Power and Oceans, Mr. Polston, owner of King’s Seafood in Port Orange, Florida, praised the Sustainable Shark Fisheries and Trade Act (SSFTA) as a “proactive bill that levels the playing field for American fishermen.” The bipartisan legislation, introduced last month by Rep. Daniel Webster (R-FL) and a group of six Democrats and Republicans, would create a formal and transparent certification program for countries importing shark products into the United States. Nations would be required to prove that they have an effective prohibition on shark finning, and management policies comparable to those in the United States.

“The SSFTA creates an incentive for other nations to end shark finning and meet the same high standards for marine conservation to which the United States holds its fishermen,” Mr. Polston said. “This bill recognizes the sacrifices our fishermen have made, and continue to make, to rebuild domestic shark populations by leveling the playing field with our foreign competitors.”

Mr. Polston was joined in his support for the SSFTA by Dr. Robert Hueter, director of the Center for Shark Research at Mote Marine Laboratory in Sarasota, Florida, who served as a scientific reviewer for the legislation.

“The SSFTA will give the American people an effective tool to say, ‘No longer will we allow the import and consumption of unsustainably fished shark and ray products on American soil. Our participation as consumers in this practice ends now,’” Dr. Hueter said. “The bill does this without punishing American fishers who are conducting legal and sustainable shark fishing, providing a model of responsible management and conservation for the rest of the world.”

Mr. Polston and Dr. Hueter also expressed their opposition to another shark bill discussed at the hearing, the Shark Fin Sales Elimination Act, introduced by Rep. Ed Royce (R-CA). This legislation would ban the domestic sale of all shark fins, including responsibly and sustainably caught American shark fins.

“This bill punishes me and others in the shark fishery by taking away an important income source, undoubtedly pushing some small businesses into unprofitability,” Mr. Polston said. “It is an insult to American fishermen who have been required to give so much for decades to create a sustainable fishery.”

Alan Risenhoover, director of NOAA Fisheries’ Office of Sustainable Fisheries, voiced similar criticisms of the Shark Fin Sales Elimination Act.

“This bill does not meet its intent to improve the conservation and management of domestically harvested sharks,” Mr. Risenhoover said. “It prohibits the possession and sale of shark fins. This would hurt U.S. fishermen who currently harvest and sell sharks and shark fins in a sustainable manner under strict federal management.”

About the Sustainable Shark Alliance
The Sustainable Shark Alliance (SSA) is a coalition of shark fishermen and seafood dealers that advocates for sustainable U.S. shark fisheries and supports healthy shark populations. The SSA stands behind U.S. shark fisheries as global leaders in successful shark management and conservation. The SSA is a member of Saving Seafood’s National Coalition for Fishing Communities.

Congressman Jones: Sustainable Shark Fisheries and Trade Act Levels the Playing Field for Domestic Producers

April 17, 2018 — The following statement was released by Congressman Walter B. Jones:

I would like to thank Chairman Lamborn and Chairman Bishop for holding this hearing today. I am pleased to join my friend, Congressman Dan Webster, in cosponsoring H.R. 5248 – the Sustainable Shark Fisheries and Trade Act. It is very important that America’s fishermen have a level playing field with foreign producers. The bill would hold other nations to the same conservation and management standards that America has adopted in our shark fisheries.

Under H.R. 5248, any nation seeking to export shark products to America must receive certification from the Secretary of Commerce that it has an effective ban on the practice of “shark finning,” and that it has a similar conservation and management program for sharks, skates, and rays. The bill also increases traceability of imported shark products.

If foreign countries are failing to manage their shark populations appropriately, they should change their ways. They shouldn’t be allowed to dump unsustainably harvested shark product on our market, and our legal, sustainable American harvesters should not be penalized for the shortcomings of foreign fishermen.

America has been a global leader in protecting shark species while allowing a sustainable harvest. In fact, U.S. federal law mandates that the domestic shark fishery be managed sustainably.

According to renowned shark scientist, Dr. Robert E. Heuter of Florida’s Mote Marine Lab, America has “one of the best systems in the world for shark fisheries management and conservation.” The proof can be seen in NOAA Fisheries own data. NOAA Fisheries’ 2015 coastal shark survey captured and tagged “more than 2,800 sharks, the most in the survey’s 29-year history.” The leader of the survey stated that NOAA Fisheries has “seen an increase in the number of sharks in every survey since 2001,” and the agency called the survey results “very good news for shark populations.”

R. 5248 is supported by the North Carolina Fisheries Association, Southeastern Fisheries Association, Blue Water Fishermen’s Association, Sustainable Shark Alliance, Garden State Seafood Association, and the Louisiana Shrimpers Association. This bill is a reasonable, balanced approach to leveling the playing field for domestic producers, while trying to encourage other nations to raise their shark management practices to appropriate levels.

Other legislative options before the subcommittee, including banning the trade of legally, sustainably harvested American shark products, represent an unnecessary, short-sighted overreach that should be rejected.

Sustainable shark bill nets solutions for overfishing

April 2, 2018 — A new bipartisan bill introduced in U.S. Congress this month encourages a science-based approach to significantly reduce the overfishing and unsustainable trade of sharks, rays and skates around the world and prevent shark finning.

The Sustainable Shark Fisheries and Trade Act of 2018 was introduced in the U.S. House of Representatives by Rep. Daniel Webster, R-FL, and Rep. Ted Lieu, D-CA, along with co-sponsors Rep. Bill Posey, R-FL, Rep. William Lacy Clay, D-MO, and Rep. Walter Jones, R-NC.

The Act would require that shark, ray and skate parts and products imported into the U.S. be permitted only from countries certified by the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA) as having in place and enforcing management and conservation policies for these species comparable to the U.S., including science-based measures to prevent overfishing and provide for recovery of shark stocks. A comparable prohibition on shark finning — the wasteful and inhumane practice of cutting off a shark’s fins and discarding the carcass at sea — would also be required.

Scientists recognize more than 1,250 species of cartilaginous fishes — sharks and related skates and rays. Of these, as many as one-quarter are estimated to be threatened with extinction, and the conservation status of nearly half is poorly known. These fishes play important ecological roles in their marine and freshwater ecosystems, and many species are culturally and economically important. These fishes are particularly vulnerable to over-exploitation — most grow slowly, mature late and produce few young. Overfishing, through targeted fisheries and incidental catch, is the primary threat to sharks and their relatives, which are harvested for fins, meat, oil, cartilage and other products.

Mote Marine Laboratory Senior Scientist Dr. Robert Hueter served as a scientific reviewer for the Sustainable Shark Fisheries and Trade Act text, providing feedback based on published research and his decades of experience as a shark scientist to inform policymakers who ultimately determined the content of the legislation.

Read the full story at Longboat Key News

Mote Scientist Contributes to Shark Trade Bill

March 27, 2018 — A new bipartisan bill introduced in U.S. Congress this month encourages a science-based approach to significantly reduce the overfishing and unsustainable trade of sharks, rays and skates around the world and prevent shark finning.

Read the full story at Sarasota Magazine

Shark Fin Ban Is Misguided, Would Undermine Sustainable U.S. Shark Fisheries, Say Experts

WASHINGTON (Saving Seafood) – September 14, 2017 – A ban on shark fin sales in the United States would undermine some of the planet’s most sustainable shark fisheries while harming global shark conservation efforts, according to two prominent shark scientists.

In a paper published this month in Marine Policy, Dr. David Shiffman, a Liber Ero Postdoctoral Research Fellow at Simon Fraser University in Vancouver, B.C., and Dr. Robert Hueter, Director of the Center for Shark Research at Mote Marine Laboratory in Sarasota, Fla., call proposed Congressional legislation banning the sale or purchase of shark fins in the United States “misguided.” Environmental group Oceana is pushing the legislation, known as the Shark Fin Trade Elimination Act.

In an interview with Saving Seafood, Dr. Shiffman said the legislation was “well-intentioned” but “overly simplistic.” By withdrawing from the global shark fin market, the United States would remove incentives for its trading partners to build sustainable shark fisheries, and would eliminate an important example of sustainable shark fisheries management, he said.

“We’re a relatively small percentage of the overall trade in shark fins, so banning the trade of shark fins within the U.S. will not have that much of a direct impact on shark mortality,” Dr. Shiffman told Saving Seafood. “But we’re a really high percentage of the sustainably caught, well-managed shark fishery. So removing us from the global marketplace for fins doesn’t help save that many sharks, but it removes this sustainable fishery from the marketplace as a template that can be copied.”

According to Dr. Shiffman, U.S. shark fisheries are built on a strong mix of “scientific research infrastructure” and “management and enforcement infrastructure,” which has helped make them some of the most sustainable in the world. His coauthor, Dr. Hueter, told Saving Seafood that enacting a shark fin ban would undermine decades of progress that went into building those sustainable fisheries.

“We have done a great job working together to rebuild the fish, and at least make the fisheries sustainable and profitable,” Dr. Hueter said. “And that is why this fin ban, in our opinion, is so misguided. Because after all these decades of work to get us to a great point with a bright future, this sort of ban would just cut the legs out from underneath the fishery. It would cause waste, put people out of business who are doing things right, and reward the folks in other nations who are not doing things well.”

Much of the public remains unaware of the sustainable status of most U.S. shark fisheries, a phenomenon the authors attribute to confusion over key issues related to shark conservation. In particular, many do not understand the difference between “shark finning” – the inhumane and illegal practice of removing a shark’s fins at sea – and sustainable landings of whole sharks required by U.S. law. Finning is “just this boogeyman of shark conservation activists,” Dr. Shiffman said. “People don’t understand what shark finning means in many cases.”

“We have sounded the alarm now for 20 years or more about this thing called finning to the point where we’ve gotten people so upset about it that they no longer listen to the subtle difference between finning and fishing,” Dr. Hueter said. “And they think that all sharks that are caught by commercial fishermen are finned animals.”

Should a total fin ban be enacted, rule-following U.S. fishermen would be economically harmed, the authors write in their paper, noting that nearly a quarter of the total value of shark meat sales comes from shark fins. Forcing fishermen to throw out fins from sustainably caught sharks would be wasteful, contradicting a United Nations plan of action to create “full use” in global shark fisheries, they write.

Instead of a fin ban, Dr. Shiffman and Dr. Hueter support policies focused on sustainable shark fisheries management. Dr. Hueter recommended five ways fishery managers could pursue this goal: increase penalties for those caught finning sharks, which Florida did earlier this year; stop imports of shark products from countries that don’t practice sustainable shark fishing; incentivize the domestic industry to process shark fins within the U.S. and provide for the domestic demand; closely monitor U.S. shark populations and support strict measures for sustainability; and increase public education about the problems facing global shark populations.

“Banning is always the easiest thing,” Dr. Hueter said. “Making the fishery so it’s regulated and sustainable and smart, that’s hard. But we shouldn’t be choosing things based on what sounds good or what feels good. We should be doing things based on what works.”

There is broad support in the scientific community for sustainable shark fisheries. In a recent survey of over 100 members of scientific research societies focusing on sharks and rays, Dr. Shiffman and Dr. Neil Hammerschlag, a marine ecologist at the University of Miami, found that 90 percent preferred sustainable management to a total ban on the sale of shark products. Dr. Shiffman believes that sustainable fisheries can go hand in hand with shark conservation.

“I am glad to see that the best available data, over and over again, is showing that we can have healthy shark populations while still having sustainable, well-managed fisheries that employ fishermen and provide protein to the global marketplace,” said Dr. Shiffman, who also writes for the marine science blog Southern Fried Science and frequently comments on shark conservation issues on Twitter. “We don’t need to choose between the environment and jobs in this case if we do it correctly.”